Digital and ATL: lets broker some motherfucking peace!
So here we are in 2011 and the UK advertising industry in the UK is still not quite firing on all digital cylinders.
But that’s OK: these things take time. Rome wasn’t built in a day and all that.
So what we can we do to help the process along?
Well, I think the first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
And here it is:
Digital creatives and ATL creatives do different jobs, but people like to pretend they’re the same.
When people discuss the conflation of ATL and D creatives, they do so under the assumption that they are all ideasmiths who happen to work in different media. Alas, this is not the truth.
Digital people might occasionally have what ATL people refer to as ‘ideas’, but the greater part of their job involves process (eg: RGA didn’t win all those Nike Plus awards for thinking the original thing up; they just made it happen, designing the look and system). Check a digi agency’s offices out: they usually have many whiteboards on the walls to explain how the digital consumer goes from A to B to C to D to F to G etc. (and that’s just banner to landing page). This means that they can’t possibly be as dedicated to the idea side of things as an ATL creative. That would be like someone at DDB writing a TV ad and fretting about how the consumer comes through the door of the living room, sits in the armchair, finds the remote, turns the TV on, looks for the right channel, scratches his arse etc. Instead they are concerned only with the idea and its execution – entirely different jobs, mentally speaking.
So this produces a friction where one half thinks the other is not up to the job (that it isn’t even supposed to do) and the other resents being thought of as a bit shit (at something they aren’t supposed to be doing).
Perhaps it would help to rename the digital people so that the expectation and disappointment is not built in to the system.
How about facilitators? Conduits? Executioners? Makers? Processors?
It would make the mechanism of collaboration clearer because people would understand their roles more, tread on each others’ toes less and the sneering and defensiveness might just peter out.
You could even have digital creatives who would be specifically employed only to come up with ideas rather than get bogged down in the minutiae of implementing them.
How about it?
I’m not sure many digital creatives would agree with this post, starting with me. The problem is not that we are shit at ideas, or that we have to spend more time working out the user journey, but that most of the good ideas don’t get made. But the good ideas don’t get made just because clients don’t buy good ideas all the time but also because there usually isn’t the same amount of money available to us to make the really good ones and they usually end up in the bottom drawer.
Let’s re-evaluate the situation once the budgets for both disciplines are on an equal footing.
as a “digital creative”, your final sentence is the one that really speaks to me.
because of the inherent need to keep up with changing technologies, the build and ship deadlines and the need to maintain existing projects, we seldom have time to really think about ideas.
we are also victims of the a->b->c tracking. there really is nowhere to hide and nowhere to let an idea percolate. if it doesn’t look good in google analytics then it’s not good.
the best position i’ve seen to combat this overall behaviour was a concept developer. someone who worked very closely with the coders and desigers, but never actually *did* anything.
Of course, Digital requires more process and logistical planning than a TV spot (or 30 second film, as many ATL creatives refer to their work). So does an experiential installation, yet experiential is usually deemed worthy folly for traditional creatives. Digital however, seems to be an almost dirty unknown to many of them, laden with unjustified stigma.
To suggest that a group of advertising creatives are not supposed to have ideas because they fully understand an area that others don’t is spurious nonsense and surely a form of workplace prejudice.
It’s that kind of BS attitude that keeps advertising disciplines apart and gives traditional creatives the excuse to stop learning more about digital in the fear that doing so might make them less creative – yes I have heard this said – more than once.
And on what planet is a greater level of understanding equal to lack of room for creativity? I would suggest the contrary rings more true.
Sure, let’s give Digital Creatives new demeaning titles like ‘Conduits’ or ‘Facilitators’ – Who wants new and informed perspectives anyway?
Or we could just wake up and realize that no one will go on a brand‚Äôs facebook page, “like it” and thus increase sales. Which is what it boils down to 90% of the time if we are honest.
Case in point:
(Sorry Snakehips, I’m afraid I can’t put that link up. But I fully agree with you.)
First of all great blog Ben.
I am a student but this is how I see it as a newcomer.I think the budget comments are true, but I think the problem really stems from how separate ATL and D agencies seem to operate (I know they’re a few exceptions). They seem to be either working independently with the main idea coming from the ATL agency, or they are two departments of the same agency where they are pushing for the big TV/outdoor idea. In both cases the budget then filters down to the digital side where they have to have an concept that fits the ATL idea.
From my point of view the way ideas are conceived in digital could be altered to be more effective; developers working with ADs, CWs and designers as soon as the brief comes in. From my (admittedly limited) experience on placements this doesn’t seem to be happening.
Also Ben, they are running a scholarship competition at my school, it would be super awesome if you could stick it up on the front page. Maybe it will go to the future Bill Bernbach of digital.
http://schoolcommunicationarts.com/one-day.html
Christian, if you think it’s all about money then you might want to reappraise your perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB5Y_0U-ca0&feature=related
(Budget: tuppence ha’penny.)
You can cite all the excuses you want, but there’s really nothing stopping you.
And Denzil, ATL creatives will happily do digital, and better than you do it (see the Met Police stuff AMV produced).
And I didn’t say that anyone should be excluded from the ideas process, just the expectation of that process.
Those titles are only demeaning if you feel demeaned by them. I intended them to be descriptive.
And thanks for rejecting my new and informed perspective.
“The best way to broker peace is to interbreed. When your children are on both sides, no conflict can exist.”
Charlie Gaddafi, 2011
—
While I largely agree with your original post on the state of UK digital, I think I must have missed this conflict between ATL and Digital creatives.
Personally, I don’t consider myself as either – I can’t draw the line between ATL and Digital. All my Art Director and I do is concentrate on the ideas and then oversee the production.
It’s the same in any media:
Film – We do the idea/script. A director writes a treatment, the crew shoot it, a post house does the post stuff, and it goes out. We just watch over the whole process.
Print – We come up with the idea, a photographer shoots it or an illustrator illustrates it, a designer makes it look awesome, and it goes out. We just watch over the whole process.
Digital – We do the idea. A coder/designer/”creative technologist”/whatever does the build. It goes out. We just watch over the whole process.
Obviously I’ve massively oversimplified there and missed out the evil clienty spanner, but you see what I mean?
Though I do find it interesting that the two digital examples you like (Met and Phillips) are both film based – a little bias from your ATL perspective?
Anyway, on to my point at last…
As you rightly say, ATL creatives will happily do digital, and better than ‘digital creatives’. But I don’t think you’re really talking about digital creatives at all – I think you’re talking about digital designers – people who code and use flash and stuff. Is your problem the fact that coders are masquerading as creatives? Because as much as I concur, it’s a little harsh isn’t it?
And just as a final point, knowing how code/tech/facebook/whatever works is no different to knowing how cameras/editing/grading/whatever works. They’re things you can get really into if you want, and you should probably have a basic understanding, but you don’t have to be an expert – people are paid to do that for you.
OMFG PeaceLOLs!!!!11!!one!!eleven!!!!
If anyone asked me to do something because it would be “super awesome” I would throw up on my dirndl dress. Even if it was the Fuhrer. Though he usually just bangs his fist on the table and shouts.
Must go. The Ivans are at the gates.
What a self serving piece of shite. in disguise, maybe.
Those people involved in how to translate the real “creatives” ideas digitally are simply conduits?
We should all just stick to our knitting.
So which side of Einstein was creative? The one that came up with the theories, then made them work,and then explained them.
PS. Before you dismiss, I only met one creative who could come close to Einstein.
[…] NEVER MISTAKE A CLEAR VIEW FOR A SHORT DISTANCE Posted on March 2, 2011 by theescapepod| Leave a comment (this post started out as a comment on a post on the always excellent Ben Kay blog. […]
“But I fully agree with you.”
Thanks Ben, that made my day.
Ben, I have to agree with Johnny. You do seem to only champion film based ideas as good examples of digital. That John Wayne thing you shTed the link to is just a pre-roll, a 15 sec tv ad masquerading as digital because it appears before a sponsored bit of online content.
I still stand by my budget comment. In order to produce an amazing piece of work you need way mire money and time than we are being given at the moment.
I’m talking about the big engagement pieces not shotty banners and all the other ‘traditional’ digital ATL people think we only do.
Apologies for the terrible spelling mistakes: iPhone + large thumbs.
Ben, without wishing to sound like a dick, have you ever worked in a proper digital agency?
Everyone knows that digital creatives are the ones that failed to get jobs ATL ‘a few years ago’. Hence they aren’t very good. The sooner we all face up to this the better.
MWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAHHHAAAAAAA!!!! (evil laugh)
I heard that decent digital production companies are hiring creatives. Is this the end of digital ad agencies?
Christian, I understand that you may not be aware of the John Wayne thing, but it won D&AD gold 15 years ago (and, I would venture, still works now). It was TV advertising that won many awards (Cannes Gold etc.) with a nothing budget.
Now try and do the same in digital.
Ciaran, what’s wrong with being a conduit? Directors and producers and photographers are all conduits. Many of them are more respected than creatives. Having ideas isn’t the be-all and end-all greatest thing in the world, you know. Let it go.
And anonymous, without wishing to sound like a cunt (why are we sounding like genitalia?), yes I have.
I also have friends who work in them. They say that much of what happens there is the digital repurposing of ATL ideas and that the people there have to deal with process, hence this post.
I should probably restate that I don’t think digital people or agencies shouldn’t have ideas, but that the process people might be better used in specialising in their discipline.
And who gives a shit if I like film-based digital work or otherwise? But for the record I love non-film-based work agencies (Got Milk, Ikea Facebook, I love Bees etc.).
Yeah but who would win in a fight?
You can’t separate having an idea from making it – you wouldn’t write a TV script and then naff off just letting the director take the helm would you?
I you are a creative and you are doing too many jobs, then you have a bad producer – Simple as that.
“Oi, Conduit. Where’s my banner?”
Lewis – 11:27pm
Super awesome???????
Who says super awesome???
Have you been reading too much Enid Blyton?
Anon 18: of course, but you don’t direct a TV ad yourself, do you?
Is this tired, tired, dreary argument the only thing keeping your blog going Ben?
You say digital creatives should be renamed bottom-feeders or shit-snivellers then spend the rest of your day replying to everyone who takes offence.
You are like a child. What’s wrong with you?
What is miso?
Re Ben.
You generally don’t direct but you do oversee the project – letting everyone smarter than you do all the hard bits.
Telly, print, digital gubbins – all the same.
The only thing to really watch out for is that in digital you have to check it is possible first.
I’ve met a few ego-maniac creatives in my time who have thrown a hissy fit when Facebook won’t let them change the background colour etc etc
Funniest thing ever from Vessel.
–
Neither side are amazingly creative currently. Nowt to do with money or medium. But where we are today.
Hi, whats your job title?
I’m a Maker.
Hi I am the Ideas Man,
here’s The Conduit
and meet Mister Maker,
we work for an agency called Rotten Potata.
I’ve worked in digital or integrated agencies and come up with big ideas – only to see them blown out by the client as soon as the ad agency puts something vaguely decent on the table. I’ve also served up superturds of ideas working ATL, then seen the client lap them up while dismissing good, solid thinking from BTL creative/ agencies on the same brief.
Most clients’ first point of call when looking for a career defining/ arse covering big idea is their big bad ad agency and there’s not much room for anyone else. ATL are consultants, everyone else are merely suppliers.
I appreciate this is sort of the point you were making. The bit I disagree with is the relative ability of digital creatives to do the work vs ATL. Let’s face it, there’s genius and shite everywhere. But it’s pretty hard to stick the ball in the back of the net when you’re sitting on the bench. You feel me?
Hi Dom!
Thanks for your reasoned and articulate rejoinder.
I’m sorry you misunderstood me. I’ve tried to be clear.
To say again, I’m just advocating a more specialised division of labour without the weight of job title expectations.
I also said ‘You could even have digital creatives who would be specifically employed only to come up with ideas rather than get bogged down in the minutiae of implementing them.’
Got a problem with that?
By the way, your numb-headed defensiveness speaks volumes.
Anon 23, you’ve got to check things are possible in all media.
Overseeing is essential. I just think that idea generation, implementation and overseeing might be too much for one person.
Let people do what they do best instead of piling diverse tasks on people who may only be suited to one thing.
most directors couldn’t write a commercial.
but when it comes to directing the commercial you’ve written. genius.
the same can be said for digital creatives.
digital directors maybe?
equally as descriptive, slightly less demeaning.
You are correct – I hadn’t heard of or seen the John Wayne thing. 15 years ago I was still in high school in another country and hadn’t decided to become an ad creative yet so I wasn’t following Cannes Awards as closely as I do now.
I’m glad you managed to track down a low budget winner from 15 years ago. Any more recent ones that could be more relevant to our debate?
There are always exceptions to the rule. Every now and then a spark of pure genius happens that costs a fiver, but those are rare and it costs a lot more than people, including clients, think to build shiny digital things.
Agreed Ben. Let people who are paid to come up with ideas do that. And let people who are paid to implement ideas do that. Of course everybody has input – that’s the right way to work. The best “Makers” I’ve worked with help make an idea even better – be it a director or a coder. But whoever came up with the original idea should certainly be overseeing the whole shebang.
I like that word, ‘shebang’.
Christian, do you really follow Cannes awards closely?
You know, I only ask because of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-rsong4xs
I say again: it can be done. Your excuses don’t reflect very well on your drive or talent.
“To say again, I‚Äôm just advocating a more specialised division of labour without the weight of job title expectations.”
Why? Who cares?
Ben,
All the ads driving traffic to the site probably did cost very little and they did get a massive amount of earned media (that’s free PR on news channels, blogs etc) but they still had to build the site and do all the back end to support the massive amount of entries. Then there’s the constant maintenance of the site over the whole period of the campaign – that doesn’t come cheap either. Then there’s the small amount of 150,000 Australian Dollars they had to pay the guy who won and also the accommodation and expenses while he was on the island. He then also of course received an assistant on request – who had to be paid and had expenses etc.
I’m not denying that this is a great idea and I would kill to have it in my book, but it still cost more than you think.
To put it into perspective: right now I am working on an 8 week campaign for a large car brand in which we are producing eight 3,5 minute long online videos with a budget of 100K. The 30 second TV ad that accompanies the campaign had a budget of 1.6 million.
CHRISTIAN: SUBSERVIENT CHICKEN. FIVE THOUSAND FUCKING DOLLARS.
STOP WHINGING FFS!
IT’S POSSIBLE!
IT.
IS.
POSSIBLE.
But not with your attitude: ‘oh woe is me. I’ve only got ¬£100,000 and it’s so much less that the big boys got. Sniff, sniff, fucking sniff.’
And Dom of Lean Mean Fighting Machine: some people, obviously (see above comments).
Hello Sailor. I’m aware that super awesome is massively uncool. I’m zigging when others are zagging. I’m also trying to bring back “Rad”, “Groovy” and “Whaaaaassaaaaaaap”.
Easy Chewie
I love that the intent of this post (to ‘broker some motheringfucking peace’), has ended in a bitterness and drama. As a spectator, it’s very exciting.
Who’s going to go next?
It’s like the Old Firm Derby.
any closer to brokering a deal ben?
A peace offering.
http://vimeo.com/20472927
Ciaran McCabe:
Einstein’s theories weren’t put into practice. They were theoretical.
Yes…
That didn’t really work, did it?
I apologise.
I was genuinely trying to suggest a route to an entente cordiale.
I will take some jellies and lie down for a bit.
(I may have deleted the odd comment or two.)
Normal service will resume forthwith.
You didn’t post my erudite and reasoned response. Why?
The fundamental mistake here is to make a distinction between different types of media. Are there Radio-creatives? TV-creatives? Digital-creatives? Print-creatives? Imagining (and believing) this distinction is why the UK is falling behind.
Digital always made me chuckle for two reasons:
There is a massive reliance on new technology
There’s a school of thought in digital that seems to think people can be told what to do. This is called engagement. Almost all of it is reliant on some form of competition mechanic (which don’t work).
Most digital (except the best stuff – such as Subservient Chicken) doesn’t grab me emotionally. All a poster/tv/radio/ etc ad has to do is to distract me and make me think of something. T
Too much digital expects you to do this thing and then that thing. Why on earth would I want to ‘capture’ the characters of a car ad onto my phone?
But digital is exciting. You get the possibility to play with all sorts of emerging tech. But the problem is it’s often too cutting edge for most clients. Have you ever tried to sell in a digital idea? It’s like trying the plot of Lost to explain to an eight year old. Technically possible. And I believe one of the more popular YouTube videos out there is someone doing just that with PostIt notes.
You can create good digital – provided your idea is simple, quick and emotional. Not based on the next tech thing/meme. You just have to sell them harder to the client. Don’t forget,they’ve probably just read something in NMA about brands making an arse of themselves on Twitter and would much rather make a TV ad. At least they can show that to their mates.
Who’d want to work in a digital agency anyway? Seems to me all the awards are being won by traditional agencies…
Me, maybe you could help me, I can’t seem to find where I said “… put into practice.”
I work in a creative department that’s just been merged with a BTL creative department. Most of what you say is true. I’ve come to the rather subjective conclusion that the way advertising is going is based on two huge errors of judgement. The first, the reason people never used to engage in conversations and interact with brands wasn’t because the channels weren’t there to do it, it was because they didn’t want to and mostly still don’t. I use telesales as evidence for this. The second mistake, the people being hired in the important positions stopped being hired because they could understand humans and started being hired because they understand media and technology. Again this is from my rather one eyed perspective, but I see more campaigns going forward that use technological solutions to business problems, rather than creative solutions to human ones. And do you know what, I’m tired of fighting.
News from the motherfuckin’ front line.
I’m an ATL creative whose agency merged with a massive and successful Digital agency at the beginning of the year (any guesses?).
I can firmly report from the confines of my tiny open-plan desk that my experience is that 95% of the Digi teams are only used to ADAPTING other ATL campaigns and not ORIGINATING them themselves. Not their fault. Just the way it works/their choice for taking the wrong/less interesting path (in my opinion).
It means that whenever a young team from Digital works into us on a brief up against a young ATL team, invariably when it’s originating strategic ideas and telly the ATL ones rinse it. When it’s social media and that (mainly stuff where it’s about understanding the capacity of the technology and doing an idea off that) the Digital ones do better.
I fear for the digi teams once the ATL teams understand the tecchy shit, ‘cos it seems to me that you can fundamentally learn that in a way that you can’t just learn how to have proper big ideas…
From what I’ve seen, I firmly believe that the digital side is far far easier than ATL.
Rambling and prob covered already, but I can’t be fucked to read the other 50 odd comments.
I’m not slagging digital off, just don’t necessarily think the two disciplines are, or should be, creatively equal…
‘I fear for the digi teams once the ATL teams understand the tecchy shit, ‚Äòcos it seems to me that you can fundamentally learn that in a way that you can‚Äôt just learn how to have proper big ideas‚Ķ’
I reckon that’s true but how many atl teams will be arsed to do it? Aren’t they busy enough already?
‘Made them work’ if we’re splitting hairs. It amounts to the same thing.
We’re back on!
Kate Aidie
I’m a big fan
Easier? You’re joking. You can stick any old shit in front of peoples’ faces and they’ll see it. We have to find away to make people give a toss.
I’ve already put up my thoughts on the problem with a lot of comments on this post but Ben didn’t post them.
I actually feel sorry for people who can’t see the possibilities of new things. I wouldn’t get so pissed off about it if they weren’t the same people who are holding me back.
Animus, I deleted a bunch of comments at lunchtime because the tone was getting a bit fraught (partly my fault).
Send yours again and I’ll put it up.
But you can’t see the possibility of the new thing I suggested, so don’t get offended if I feel sorry for you.
I’m not offended. I’m too overwhelmed by the possibility of the thing you suggested to experience any emotion.
I can’t remember exactly what I said but the point was if you can’t can’t come up with a big idea, art direct/write it beautifully and implement it digitally you’re not a very good creative.
If you can’t do at least three of these four things, you’re under-skilled as far as I am concerned (or at least less skilled than me).
But I think most half decent creatives probably can. They just haven’t tried or had the opportunity to have a go.
@ Katie Aidie
I’ve done digital and ATL and both have their own challenges.
I think there is a lot more pressure to deliver the big idea in ATL. There is a lot more effort put into the detail of the idea.
With digital there is the pressure of accountability. It’s easy to track whether an idea is performing or not. There’s also a lot more pressure to be the latest shiny new thing on the interweb.
I get really frustrated with digital people who think that a piece of technology is a substitute for a good idea. It’s like saying a television is an idea.
It’s true that many digital creatives are only able to adapt ATL concepts and it’s true that ATL creatives will learn how to do the digi stuff ‚Äì I did.
I think that one of the reasons that a lot of digital creatives aren’t so hot in the ideas department is that most of them didn’t start out as ideas people in the traditional sense. A lot of them started out as designers for the web, early adopters who fell in love with technology. Digital copywriters (the older ones anyway) usually have backgrounds in Direct and content creation (publishing). It’s only recently that teams have appeared in digital agencies. Quite a few digital agencies still don’t have permanent teams. I have worked for a few CDs who prefer to have organic departments where teams are formed according to a brief’s requirements.
The strongest will survive. But it doesn’t have to get bloody.
IF_HTML_FUNCTION?douche
Christian, I might have got this completely wrong, but didn’t you just agree with my post?
As a mere bystander at this debate, I think Nobby wins and should be made King of the ad universe.
It is very possible for ATL creatives to pick up all the techy shit as they go along. I have. But then I’m a bit of a geek. Read Wired (UK & US), read Japanese blogs, read Rubbishcorp, go to fucking Dixons…soak it all up then smash all the digital ‘creatives’ out the park. I worked hard to get where I am by learning. Learning what a strategy is, learning to think big, media-neutral ideas, working with the best CDs in the business, pushing myself every day. If you’re not doing that you need to stand aside buster: Cock Knocker’s coming through!
great post Ben. Agree 100%.
Confused. When I come up with a digital idea some tech person tells me if it’s possible and how to do it. Then we oversee it as someone else implements it.
I’m utterly depressed. Cannot see what all the fuss is about. I think i’ll go and work in a florist.
you sir are a cunt.
A washed up, old creative cunt.
Now go away and die.
[…] If This Is A Blog Then What's Christmas? – Digital and ATL: lets … Digital and ATL: lets broker some motherfucking peace So here we are in 2011 and the UK advertising industry in the UK is still not quite firing on all digital cylinders. But that's OK: these things take time. The fundamental mistake here is to make a distinction between different types of media Are there Radio-creatives? TV-creatives? Digital-creatives? Print-creatives? Imagining (and believing) this distinction is why the UK is falling behind. […]